Badaskan Sarabian, as interviewed by Raffi K. Hovannisian, 1979

Description

This interview is made possible through the generosity of Dr. Richard G. Hovannisian and assistance of the USC Shoah Foundation - The Institute for Visual History and Education. Badaskan’s recorded story came to the Armenians of Whitinsville project in the Fall of 2020 from the Richard G. Hovannisian Armenian Genocide Oral History Collection at the USC Shoah Foundation's Visual History Archive in response to the project’s request to share any recordings with a link to Whitinsville.

The transcript follows:

Badaskan Sarabian, Survivor

The following is an interview with Mrs. Badaskan Sarabian, a native of Parchanj, Kharpert. The interviewer is Raffi K. Hovannisian. The date is February 19, 1979, and the interview is taking place at the home of Mrs. Sarabian in Sanger, California.

RH What is your name?

BS Badaskan Sarabian

RH Where were you born?

BS I was born in Parchanj, Kharpert (Now called Akcakiraz)

RH Now, where is this? Is it like the big city, Mezire? (Now called Elazig)

BS No, it is not a city. More like a town or village. It was a village.

RH How far is it from the big city?

BS About five miles. I was very little, so did not go [to the big city]. The last time when [they] were about to send [us] to exile, [the Turks] gathered us and sent us to Mezire. [The Turks] gathered [us] in the graveyard, and from there, [they] sent [us] to another village which was quite far from the graveyard. Would you like me to tell you?

RH Just a moment about your village… In what year were you born?

BS I was born in 1901, but actually it was 1902, but it was registered as 1901. I say I was born in 1901.

RH Can you describe your town? What kind of town was it?

BS We had a rather large number of Armenians in the village. We had Apostolic, Protestant, and Catholic Churches in the village.

RH Do you remember the names?

BS The names were “Apostolic” Saint Savior Church; Protestants were called Protestant, they didn’t have a name. And Catholics, I believe, was called Catholic Church. I don’t know any other names.

RH How many Armenians were in the village?

BS I think there were 3,000..

RH And, were there Turks? …

BS We had 300 houses, yes, 300 were Armenian. I think 500 were Turks.

RH Then, there were more Turks?

BS Yes.

RH What language did you speak in the village?

BS Armenian.

RH Were their other nationalities? Were there Greeks, Jews and Kurds?

BS There were not any among us; there were Kurds. There were Kurds.

RH How many Kurds were there?

BS I would say about 200. Kurds did not really reside there. They were coming and going. Just like Mexicans come here, work and leave; They, too, don’t reside here. Very few had residency.

RH What did the Armenians do? What kind of occupations did they have?

BS All sorts of jobs. They had various jobs like making silk, agriculture, trade, and shoe making, and all sorts of things. Most were in agriculture.

RH What kind? …

BS Things such as wheat, cotton, vegetables and such things.

RH What did the Turks and Kurds do? What kind of occupations did they have?

BS Some of the Turks worked. Others were landlords, living off the Armenians’ production. Yes.

RH And those that worked, what did they do?

BS They worked by themselves.

RH What kinds of buildings were there? Were they stone-built?

BS They were built from mud, generally built from mud in our area. We called it dobik, (another word for this unfired brick is karpij)

RH In general, how many stories were there (in the houses)?

BS Normally, the houses were one story, and more recently, they were two-story houses made out of wood. There were only a few wooden two-story houses. We had one.

RH Where were the markets? Were they close by?

BS Yes, they were close by. The market was in the middle of the village.

RH What was sold there?

BS Everything. We had a baker, a shoemaker…things like, what it’s called, grain, Every thing was sold. They would bring things from other places with camels and take [different things] from our place. And conduct trade in that way.

RH And, who was selling?

BS Turks or Armenians were the ones doing the trade. Kurds also [sold things]. The Arabs would bring, the Kurds would bring [things to sell]. When [they] came on camels, they were generally from Arabic clans. They were the ones who brought things..

RH Who went to the market to buy food for the household?

BS Most of the time, people produced for themselves. The meat was bought outside. Just like here: We produce everything in the farm…we were making this and that. The country was like that. Everything [was produced] by themselves: the wheat, cracked wheat, and vegetables were dried or were pickled and put in jars. At last, everything [was consumed] with what they owned and produced, only the meat was bought outside. My father went to the market, and if he could not, my mother did.

RH Who went most?

BS My father did.

RH Did he ever go to the city to buy things?

BS Yes, my father and my mother went [to the city] but we, the little ones, did not go.

RH What did they buy?

BS They bought clothing, and shoes, if they did not find anything convenient in the village, they went to bring the shoes from the city. They brought them from Mezire. It was like that.

RH Did your quarter have a private name?

BS No, they did not have names.

RH Were the Armenians and Turks integrated? Or was the Armenian community and…

BS It was somehow separated, but they were always next to each other and they were not completely separated. There were very few places where only Armenians lived. But [they] were always mixed.

RH Both Apostolic and Protestants? Did not they have separate places?

BS No, no, no. We lived [as] Armenians. Only the church, they went to the Protestant, and we to the Apostolic.

RH How did they get to far places? How did they go?

BS They went on donkeys and carriages. [People] went to far places in such ways. They often walked on foot.

RH Did a merchant ever come to your door? … The ones that go from door to door, were there such?

BS No. Only vegetables were sold that way from door to door.

RH Who was selling?

BS Usually, they were Armenians. [They] produced in other places. There was a village called Keserig. Vegetables were more produced there [than in our village]. They sometimes bought and sold from door to door. Those who did not have fields, naturally, bought [food].

RH How far was Keserig?

BS It was about 3 – 4 miles. I did not go because in my country small children were not usually taken back then. As I said, I did not go to Mezire.. Then, my mother did not take [us], [my parents] always left us home.

RH Can you describe your own house?

BS Our own household that we had, we were a very large clan once. We were not very many when I was around. But my mother told me that when she was married, seventy men set just by one table. I am Torigian girl.

RH Were you a Torigian?

BS Yes [in tears]. We had a large library, a large place where we kept our food, and another place where we kept fruits for the winter. On the upper floor, we had a room for keeping these things. [There was] another room again on the upper room for keeping food. We had rather a big house.

RH Did you have a separate bedroom?

BS I had, but we were not used to sleeping alone. Almost, in my time, in the large room … two of my brothers are here.

RH Why are they here?

BS They ran away because of the fear of the Turks and came here. But one of my brothers…[Crying…] was murdered…[continues crying] twenty years old… h was twenty years old when [he] was shot.

RH Was this before the massacres?

BS [It was] right before the war. He was going to be taken to the army and [he] disappeared.

RH Did you have a garden?

BS We, normally, had little of our own recently. Hmm, we had a garden. We had a garden. But my father always rented other gardens at different locations. Like they rent it here, [my father] rented that way; he had lately been doing that.

RH Did you have an animal?

BS We had a cow [excited].

RH Did you have a cow? Where did you keep it?

BS [We kept the cow] at one of the parts in the house: [It was] in the lower part of the house.

RH What purpose did you use it for?

BS For milk.

RH Who fed it?

BS [My parents] bought [the food] with money and fed [it to the cow].
RH Where was your bathroom?
BS It was in one of the corners of the house.
RH You had a private building outside, didn’t you?
BS No, not outside. But almost when leaving the house, right by the cow-house.
RH Was your village among the mountains or was it in the gorge?
BS No, it was vast [wide in the open]. [It was] “dord” field.
RH And, how was the weather?
BS It was cold both in summer and winter. We used to have snow, lots of snow.
RH Then, how did you keep the house warm during the winter?
BS Wood.
RH And the lighting, how did you get lighting at nights?
BS We had “koloy”, we used to burn “koloy.” We had a lamp in my times, now…
RH Where did you get the water from?
BS The water, for example, if it was outside the house, [people] used to go and get it for consumption. But right in our house, the part that we sold, we had a well inside [our property]. We could go and bring water from there and use it.

RH Was there a river by the village?

BS No. For laundry, [women] went a bit farther, there were springs and such where [women] would wash their clothes or [they] would bring the water from there.

RH Did they have a dog or a cat?

BS Yes, a dog.

RH What dog did they have?

BS They kept one: It was a dog. In general, in order to warm one another.

RH Did it have a name?

BS Yes, it was called [something].

RH Do you remember the name?

BS We did not have a dog at my times. Because, in our house there were my mother, father, and me which is why we did not keep a dog. Of course, I think when we were exiled, my father and mother were barely sixty years old.

RH Do you remember any object in the house that was your favorite object? …

BS Yes..

RH What do you remember in your house in particular?

BS We had a carpet in our house, a “sopa”: it was called “kyursi,” I do not know if you have heard of that or not. They put “surrati,” warmed it up and set by it. We had household object, we had everything that was necessary [for the household].

RH Where were those carpets bought from?

BS The carpet was not bought in my times: it was left since the times of my grandfather. It was a very, very expensive heirloom. [Here the interviewee says something about splitting the carpet, but the exact sense is unclear] When the brothers separated, they cut the carpet in two; one part went to the other brother, and we kept the other part. If it was here now, it would be very expensive, but we left it to Turks and came.

RH Can you describe your family? Who was there [in your family]? Who lived with you? How old were they? What were their names?

BS I had four sisters and three brothers.

RH What were their names?

BS My elder sister’s name was Anna, in a descending order, [the other sister’s name] was Nonik, another one was Anna, and I am Badaskhan.

RH Were there two Annas?

BS No. [The names were] Anna, Nonik, Sara, and Badaskan. These were my sisters. I had three brothers: Margar, Manoog, and Nazaret

RH Were all of them younger [than you]?

BS I am the youngest one.

RH How many years were you younger, was it two-three years difference from your brothers?

BS No. They were quite older. One of my brothers came to the United States when I was six months old. Two of them came here.

RH Which brother?

BS [It was] my oldest brother. I had not seen him, and then, I came and saw him here, but unfortunately, I enjoyed his company for only two years. I think I was nine, when my other brother escaped from the Adana massacres. He came here and went back, and again left for here and went back several times. He once again came to the United States when the Adana massacres were a little bit seized.

RH Was he in Adana?

BS No. He was in the village with us. But in order to escape from the Turks he went to Adana, Cilicia. In Cilicia, when there was a war [he] was sent back. Some were killed, others were saved. Fortunately, he was sent back to home. At the end, he had some other troubles so he came to the United States. We sent the other brother to the United States in order he could escape from Turkish claws.

RH Which one?

BS The youngest, that I told about.

RH What year?

BS I think it was 1915… 1914, he left around the 14th because the Great Exile began around 1915.

RH What was your father’s name?
BS Mardiros (sighing).
RH Mardiros, and your mother’s name?
BS Mariam.
RH What was her maiden name?
BS My mother’s [last name] was Misakian, and my father’s [last name] was Torigian.
RH When you lived there, were your grandparents alive?
BS No, I have not seen my grandparents.
RH Did your father or mother have any sisters and brothers?
BS My father had a sister, and one of his brothers is here. The brother who is here had a wife who was your grandma’s cousin. She was from Ordu.

RH What is her name?

BS Zaruhi Torigian. She has died.

RH What is her husband’s name?

BS Garabed Torigian.

RH Did he come here very early?

BS He [came here] very [early]. I think [he] came in ’81. If I am not mistaken my uncle (father’s brother) has it written down somewhere. He also died.

RH And [what is] your aunt’s (father’s sister’s) name ?

BS My aunt’s name was Vartik Galanian. [She] had a sister.

RH She also…

BS Yes, [she was in] Kharpert. She was exiled too…we went from one village to another…then she ran away and came back. But we were exiled and we went until Dikranagerd.

RH Does your mother have a brother or a sister?

BS My mother’s brother was in exile [when] he was taken away and was shot. [His] children were also murdered. One of the boys escaped, and he is in France. [He] escaped and is there [in France].

RH What is your uncle’s name?

BS Hovhannes Misakian.

RH Hovhannes Misakian. And that boy’s name who survived?

BS Alexan Misakian.

RH And where in France?

BS Lyon

RH Then how many people lived in your house?

BS At the end, there were only three persons left.

RH Why?

BS Because my sisters got married and went to their houses.

RH Where they in the same village?

BS One was in the village, the other…

RH Which one?

BS The middle sister was in the village.

RH Where did the others go?

BS The others: one of them went to a village called Tadem, which was quite far, and the other went to a village called Muri; we used to walk over there but it was not too close. As I have already said, my brothers were already here, and the ones left were my father, my mother, and me.

RH Then, your aunt’s or your uncle’s families did not live with you, did they?

BS All of them had their own houses.

RH But when you stayed, you said that 70 people…

BS Back then, [they] lived together.

RH When was that?

BS I can say that was maybe 150 years ago. Because I turned to sixty; my mother was sixty when she told [me] so it stuck in my mind. There is no doubt that it was 125 [years ago]. I don’t remember much.

RH Did your brothers, sisters, your father and mother get education?

BS My brothers knew how to read Armenian, but…

RH Did they go to school?

BS Yes.

RH Which school?

BS They went to our village school.

RH And your parents?

BS My parents did not [go to school]?

RH What was your father doing? What kind of job did he have?

BS My father, as I have already said, dealt with garden matters.
RH Did he have employees?

BS No. He worked by himself.

RH Did your mother help him?

BS Yes. My mother would make clothes; it was called linen; she had a sewing machine; she did those kinds of things.

RH Who made the family decisions?

BS Naturally, my father or my mother.

RH Now, was there any relative in the village?

BS Yes. For example, I had maternal uncles, paternal uncles, and other uncles. My youngest uncle was my closest uncle, but there were cousins too: we had 2-3 cousins. We were the Torigians..

RH How often did you see each other?

BS Once in a while. We could always meet with each other because when we went to the market or outside, we met each other.

RH And, if you had financial or material problems, did you help each other?

BS At some degree, they helped each other. To be honest, I don’t know for sure because I was very little and did not have information about that.

RH Did you have good relationship with your in-laws?

BS We did not have in-laws because my brothers did not get married there.

RH What about your sisters?

BS One of my sisters lived far away, as I have already said, sometimes we saw each other.

RH Did you meet with each other?

BS Yes, once in a while. On holidays… now and then. We could not always see each other because we did not live close to each other.

RH What time do you remember from your childhood that was the happiest one?

BS The happiest moment was when we had a father and a mother, we went to school, and we did not know anything. It was at that time… till I was fourteen.
RH Were you taught songs?

BS Of course, in school.

RH Did they tell you fairytales?

BS Sometimes, they told us.

RH Do you remember any songs?

BS If they come to my mind, I will remember but in reality…

RH Yes, yes, yes. We would like you to sing. If you remember, just one stanza.

BS The order is mixed now.

RH It is not a problem.

BS I cannot... It is not necessary…

RH Who did you play with when…

BS With neighbors’ daughters.

RH And where?

BS We had a yard, we had a schoolyard we played at, or we could play at the rooftops of our houses because they were flat; we could go up to the roof and play there. Instead of playing in the streets, we played on the roofs to avoid having problems.

RH Did you get to the roof?

BS Yes, we went up to the roof.

RH Were they flat?

BS Yes.

RH How did you get there?

BS With a ladder.

RH What kind of games did you play?

BS Children’s games.

RH Like what?

BS We played with a ball. [The game was called] “To Turn,” we caught each other and turned… we had such games, such childish games.

RH Did you have any responsibilities when you were growing up? Did your parents expect anything from you?

BS They expected me to clean up, to do chores around the house. It is natural.

RH What did they expect from your elder brothers and sisters?

BS They did not expect anything from them because they could hardly help themselves.

RH Did you ever get punished?

BS Naturally, sometimes.

RH How?

BS When I opposed my mother, naturally, she punished me.

RH How, what did she do to punish you?

BS She did not give me food

RH Did you go to school?

BS Yes.

RH Which school?

BS Our village school.

RH Did it have a name?

BS No, it did not.

RH And who ran the school?

BS It was under the supervision of teachers and church officials.

RH Do you remember the names of the teachers?

BS One of them was Mariam, the other was… Dikranouhi, the other…

RH Did you call them Mariam and Dikranouhi?

BS No. For several years, it was Mariam, and at the end, it was Dikranouhi.

RH But didn’t you call each other by last name?

BS No. We did not call them by last names; we did not call by the last name in the country; we called them teacher.

RH What did you study, what subjects?

BS As I did not go to school for a very long time, I left the school when I was thirteen because my eyes were hurt. I went to school for a while until I was fourteen so I learned simple reading and writing, I think.

RH Then thirteen… did you begin at three?

BS No. I started before, but at the end of thirteen… at the end of twelve or thirteen, I could not go to school because I had a white layer on my eye.

RH How did it happen?

BS I always felt it and asked but they did not know what it was. At the end, it was such that my eye could not see. “Mother,” I said, “my eye could not see.” She said “What are you saying?” I said “Yes, my eye could not see.” Then, they look and saw that there was white layer on my eye. Then, I could not go to school; when I would read, tears went down my eyes; I could not [read].

RH Do you remember any interesting stories from school? Things that…

BS I do not remember anything in particular.

RH Was there another school in the village?

BS Yes, Protestants’

RH Was it close to your school?

BS Yes.

RH How far was it?

BS It wasn’t very far.

RH And who ran it? Missionaries or …

BS No, it was local Armenians, and if missionaries could help them, they did.

RH What did your parents want you to become?

BS I do not think they expected anything in regards to that because I was still young.

RH Now, you said that most of your food you got from your garden. Where did you get your meat?

BS From the market; we got it outside.

RH And, where did you keep it?

BS They always brought [the meat] on Saturdays, consumed it and then they went and bought [meat] the following week; because it was already cold at our place. There were private baskets, they would bring and store under those baskets; they had quite a cellar, it kept the meat quite cool; as I have already said, our place is cool. They did not buy much usually; they brought the meat only for a daily consumption; then, they bought fresh one the following week.

RH Did they buy flour every week?

BS No, the flour once; the wheat that they produced was taken to be milled and then stored in special containers; it was kept and used like that till the end of the year.

RH Did they grind and then store?

BS No, they had a place, they had a private place that milled the grain.

RH Understood. And, how was the food prepared?

BS The bread was cooked at home; the food also…

RH How was it cooked?

BS They had large ground oven (tonir) where they baked [the bread].

RH And what did you eat? What kind of meal?

BS Everything.

RH Like what?

BS Meat products, kufta, kheyma, fasoulia…everything; everything that was produced such as white beans, green beans, beets, all kinds of vegetables; we had all sorts of things. We had everything. Each type barley, lentils. I cannot say… do you understand?

RH Who made your clothes? Did you make them or did you buy them from somewhere else?

BS No, it was made. If they could make the clothes at home, mothers made; if they could not make it at home, there were tailors… they were assigned.

RH And you, personally, which dress did you wear? The ones that your mother made?

BS When I was young, my mother did not want to sew; I had an aunt’s (mother’s sister’s) daughter who sewed for me.

RH What was your aunt’s daughter’s name?

BS Yughaper.

RH How and who washed the clothes?

BS My mother washed.

RH How?

BS They would bring the water, warm it up, and wash with warm water and soap.

RH And where did you have a bath?

BS We had a place in the house. Built privately with stone, where the water runs; we bathed there.

RH If we were to return to your house and enter you home, what would your mother be doing on a regular day? What did your mother generally do from morning when she woke up until sleeping at night?

BS Oh, she knitted a lot. She made threads from cotton, and as I have already said, she made linen; she always used to sew: things for the home, specific pieces, underwear and other things with designs.

RH Did anyone help?

BS She did not have anyone at home at that time; I was little and wanted to play.

RH Of course you were young, but how much was the monthly or weekly spending on the house?

BS I don’t know much about that because…

End of Side “A” of the First Tape ,,,stay tuned for a few minutes on same

RH Who made the decisions about what types of meal you ate? Was it your father?

BS No. Naturally, my mother.

RH Was there a hospital in your village?

BS No.

RH Wasn’t there? Was there a doctor?

BS There was neither a doctor.

RH If anyone got sick…?

BS [A doctor] was called from Mezire.

RH And what did this doctor do?

BS Whatever medicine he could use, he did use.

RH Was he an Armenian?

BS No.

RH Was he a Turk?

BS He was a Turk.

RH And was there any, how should I say this, case of recovery at one of the houses?

BS I remember one was an Armenian; he was called Hagopian; he already came and died here; he came most of the time…he was called very often.

RH Was home medicine used?

BS Sometimes it was used.

RH Who took care of the pregnant women?

BS We did not have a special caretaker, they were by themselves.

RH Were they given special attention, or did they still do their responsibilities?

BS I remember that they had to take care of [the household] responsibilities till the last minute.

RH How were the older people given care? Did they have such a home for old folks?

BS No.

RH Who took care of them?

BS In general, their offspring took care of them.

RH What did you do with your spare time? Say for the vacation…

BS We did not have anything to do; if to go to somewhere… As I said, there was my sister that I would go and visit for several days and come back, or my mother would go. We would not go too far places; sometimes we had holidays when [people] would go to far places, to pilgrimage.

RH But, where did you go on the vacations?

BS On vacation, I already said that I would normally go to either one of my sister’s or to the other.

RH How did you go?

BS On foot.

RH On foot? How long did it take?

BS I cannot say exactly, but it took two hours on foot.

RH What did you do when you returned from school?

BS My mother made me do chores around the house; sometimes, I did some cleaning that my mother assigned me to do; she would make me do some sewing or knitting too.

RH Did you have school responsibilities?

BS Yes, naturally, I had to study the subjects.

RH Was any book or paper read in your house?

BS There was no paper.

RH Were there books?

BS Yes, as I have already mentioned, there were people before me that went to school who could read… it was only me but I just started and was not much fond of it.

RH Did you have long, winter nights? How did you spend them?

BS We stayed at home; my mother knitted, and if we were given sewing and knitting, we did it, otherwise, would sit and talk; /sometimes/, they would go and visit neighbors; they would visit each other in the evenings.

RH What did the men do?

BS They also visited.

RH Did you ever go out? Here, if there was a movie…

BS There were no such things.

RH Were there any dances?

BS There were no such things.

RH Now, did the men and women spend their spare time the same ways or different ways?

BS Naturally, males sat separately, they talked and drank a little, and the women also sat separately and made conversation.

RH Did you go to church every Sunday?

BS Yes.

RH Was there church every day?

BS Yes. Every day in the evening or in the morning; there were church hours both in the evening and in the morning.

RH What was your relationship with the Protestants?

BS There was no difference, we only did not go to the Protestant [Church]; they did not want us there that much /our school teacher was not too proper so my mother did not want [me to go there] and even though, she did not want to send me to Protestant [school], she eventually did.
Why? Well, because she wanted me to learn Armenian to write letters; there was no one who could write letters at the house so she had to ask others, but she did not like doing it, She sent me to the Protestants for a while /laughing.-transcriber/ till my teacher was replaced and then she brought me back; we were Apostolic.

RH Now, was there a mosque in the city?

BS Yes, there was.

RH How many were there?

BS They had one.

RH Did you have any relationship with them?

BS With a Turk? Yes, we had a neighbor; we had one such neighbor… They were also living behind the house.

RH Do you remember your pastor’s name?

BS His name was Father Barnabas

RH Father Barnabas? Your religious leaders in the Armenian community, how should I say this, was their voice heard?

BS Yes.

RH Do you remember any holidays? Easter…

BS There was Easter, Paregentan (Means Good Living, the day before Lent), Vartavar (Palm Sunday), and Echmia…. What was it? Oh yes, it was called Dyarnuntarach (Presentation of the Lord).

RH What did you do?

BS On Dyarnuntarach we would go up to the roofs and make a bonfire; before that, we would make round shaped bread. They would keep the bread and dry them; there was a special day for that; I think they made [the bread] for Paregentan Day, and that day, they would wet the bread and eat it and go around the fire; they would visit houses on Paregentan Day.

RH What did you do on Easter?

BS On Easter, they would go and play the egg game or they would just dance; there was a special place where they gathered and danced around [the fire].

RH Were there large gatherings?

BS Sometimes there were.

RH What did they do on Christmas?

BS On Christmas, they would visit more houses; they would visit friends and relatives’ houses, and eat and drink.

RH Was there anyone who had gone to Jerusalem?

BS Yes, my aunt (mother’s sister) went there.

RH Alone? Did she return?

BS Yes.

RH Why did she go [there]?

BS She was working with some people; with their help, she went and came back.

RH Did a bard ever come to your village?

BS If he came, I don’t really remember him doing so; sometimes some people came [to our village]; they were called acrobats: people that play on the strings.

RH What did they do?

BS They would come and play, and we would go and [watch] these gatherings.

RH Were they Armenian?

BS Yes. Usually, they were Armenian; they came from around Mush; generally, they were from Mush.

RH Was there any, how should I say this, superstition?

BS I do not know such a thing.

RH Now, when we drink the coffee and…

BS We would examine the cups.

RH Were there such things?

BS Yes, I think there was something like that.

RH What kind of traditions were there when a person was born, or when he/she died, or was engaged, or got married? Can you describe?

BS Of course, [people] got very excited when someone was born, and if it was a male, they would take him to be baptized; they would celebrate that and give a name [to that baby]; they would have gatherings where they would bring presents to the baby.

RH Were the presents wrapped up?

BS I do not know; they had big weddings that lasted two or three days; they had girls separate or the boys separate; they would put the hands in henna.

RH What is henna?

BS It would turn red; they would turn the hands red, like here, they put things on the hands; they would make the hands red over there; it was a sign of celebration.

RH Were there musicians?

BS Yes.

RH Who were they?

BS They were Armenians; in general, for Armenians, theywere of Armenian origin.

RH What did they play?

BS It was clarinet, clarinet; they would also play drums.

RH What did they do during engagement ceremonies?

BS Almost the same things; during the engagement ceremony, usually, the adults would take, the grandmothers and elder relatives…the adults would do that.

RH Do you remember your sisters’ wedding days?

BS No, no.

RH Were you too young? Now, who takes care of the wedding preparations?

BS The parents.

RH Whose parents?

BS I think the groom’s parents would take care of the clothing and other things; the boy’s parents did that or someone from the groom’s side.

RH And the engagement?

BS Bride’s side would do the engagement.

RH When someone was ill, how… Would they visit him?

BS Yes.

RH What were the customs when someone died?

BS Again, they would come to visit;

RH Would they immediately bury the dead?

BS They would come for support.

RH Would they immediately bury the dead?

BS They would bury the deceased person the next day; when [someone] died, they would wash [the body]; then, they would take [the body] to church and the following day, they would bury [the deceased].

RH In what did they bury the bodies?

BS In the graveyard, they would wrap [the body] in canvas.

RH Wasn’t the body in coffin?

BS No.

RH Were there specific burial rites and 40th day requiem services for remembering the dead?

BS I don’t really remember much; because it did not happen in our house, and I don’t remember much of others’ [funerals].

RH At what age did the man and woman get married?

BS Generally, people did not get married before they turned eighteen; boys would get married at twenty; or like here, sometimes there are those who would fall in love and get married but sometimes the parents would make them to get married, it is different; usually, it is not before eighteen or twenty; before, they would get married [at a younger age] but lately, they would not marry that early.

RH But, could the girl or the boy refuse if the parents had already made the decision for them?

BS Sometimes, if they don’t love, they refuse, yes; if it helped [refusing], but before it did not help. I remember my uncle’s daughter did not love the groom at all, but she was forced to marry him; she did not want [to get married]; “Don’t come,” she would say, but she was forced to marry him; such things also happened.

RH And now when those children grow up, would they behave differently? Were there ever any cases of divorce?

BS It happened. Lately, yes.

RH How did the people treat those who were divorced?

BS My brothers were married; they would stay with my father and my mother; they were bored and did not want [to stay married]; they wanted to divorce the wives. Of course, [people] had problems and did not like divorcing but lately, they did divorce; not as often as now, but they divorced.

RH Did an Apostolic ever get married with a Protestant?

BS They got married… Would you like me to tell a story? My sister’s husband was a son of a pastor.

RH [Was he the son] of that pastor? Which pastor?

BS No. I don’t remember him, it was Father Toros;

RH Where?

BS In our village. My sister married with Father Toros’son; the other daughter was supposed to marry the other son; she married him. He was a Protestant; when they married each other, she went to get baptized; this girl came and since she did not love a Protestant, she took a bath; she got sick very badly /both laughing.-transcriber

RH Did an Armenian ever marry a Turk?

BS No, no! They would kidnap, with difficulties, but never voluntary.

RH Did an Armenian ever convert to Islam?

BS The first cases were in 1895, but at the end, during the war, of course there were people that converted.

RH Did you personally ever speak with the Turks? Did you meet them? Did you speak [with them]?

BS Yes. We had friends that were neighbors with us; there were girls and boys that we were neighbors with.

RH What did you talk about with each other?

BS We would try to speak in Turkish as much as we could, and they would try to speak in Armenian.

RH If two people passed by, how would you know which one is a Turk, which one Armenian? How did they differ?

BS They would cover themselves with a sheet.

RH [Did they also take] people?

BS No, not people.

RH What did they wear?

BS They would wear almost the same things.

RH What did you wear? Armenians.

BS They would wear outfits.

RH And, what did the males wear?

BS Just like today’s pants, they would wear pants.

RH Did they wear hats?

BS Yes.

RH What kind of hat?

BS It was a red fez and they had something wrapped up at one end.

RH Did the Turks also [do that]?

BS Yes, the Turks too.

RH How did you feel as an Armenian in the Ottoman Empire?

BS We were afraid; we always lived in fear.

RH Were you happy with the Turkish government?

BS No.

RH Why?

BS Because they always bothered [us].

RH How did they bother [you]?

BS They would rob, kill, and take more than the tenth [percent] of what you had; always, they always wanted to rob Armenians.

RH So when you were a child, did they come and rob you?

BS Yes. I was nine year-old girl; my father and my mother went to work in the field in the summer; he said that “your meal is there in the afternoon.” I used to stay home; usually other places… they would keep me at home out of fear. In the afternoon, I went there to have my lunch, and after having lunch around two o’clock, I returned home and discovered that the objects in the house were taken away.

RH Do you know who took them?

BS We knew but we could not say anything because he was our neighbor; if we said anything, they would become even worse enemies.

RH Then, what was the relationship with the Turks? With your Turkish neighbors?

BS It was a simple relationship; there was no friendship; we were afraid.

RH Was there any conflict?

BS We tried not to create [a conflict] because if we did not make any efforts, naturally, there would have been problems.

RH Was there any organization in your village? A political or any other parties?

BS They had started.

RH What had started?

BS Dashnaktiutyun was started. Men… My husband tells me that he was a member of a [youth] party; naturally, there were many people at his age.

RH Did they have open meetings?

BS They did but it was not open.

RH What kind?

BS Well, in their houses.

RH Why?

BS They were afraid of the Turks.

RH Were there other organizations?

BS I don’t remember. But I know that one.

RH Did you have a mayor?

BS Not in the village. We had khan. We had a police chief.

RH Was he a Turk?

BS Yes.

RH Where did he live?

BS In the Turkish quarters.

RH And was there an Armenian in the government? Was there an Armenian leader?

BS There was not any in our village but there was in the city.

RH Did you know him?

BS No, I did not know [him], only by reputation.

RH Now, in the Armenian community, who made the decisions about how the Armenians should live? Any such organization…

BS No, if there were such people, they were separate individuals; so, there was nothing like that publicly.

RH Did the Turks call a Turkish battalion to the village whenever there was a problem? Were there ever such problems?

BS In our last days, such things happened.

RH And before that?

BS We did not see. They could come to the city like Mezire but we never saw them in the places like villages.

RH Did the Turkish government coordinate the schools and the church?

BS If we had national songs or national books, they would arrest [us].

RH Did you have Turkish classes in school?

BS No.

RH Say, if a person died, how did the news spread?

BS The news was given to that police chief; I think, the pastor was informed and then, he would tell the police chief; and the police chief would send the news to Mezire; I don’t remember that part.

RH And, how were the relatives informed?

BS The relatives would go on foot and inform each other and their friends.

RH Was there a jail in your village?

BS No. Of course, if they wanted, they could arrest in a house; but there was not a separate prison.

RH And where did they hold the courts?

BS They took to Mezire.

RH Court, did you ever go?

BS No.

RH Did you pay tribute?

BS Yes.

RH And how often?

BS They gave tributes once a year, but I am not aware how much they paid.

RH Who came [to collect]?

BS My father.

RH Who did your father give [the tribute] to?

BS The police chief used to come.

RH Was it always the same person?

BS I don’t know; I don’t remember.

RH And why wasn’t there an Armenian paper?

BS Well, maybe there was in Mezire, but there was not in the village.

RH Did you see soldiers or policemen in the streets in the first years?

BS Not many.

RH Now, if you say that the Armenians were not happy with the government, did they protect themselves in any ways? Did they somehow complain?

BS Armenians? Naturally, elders were complaining, but...

RH How were they complaining?

BS I am not aware of how they protested; as I said, with such important things, that was left to the older people

RH Did you have a weapon at home?

BS We did, but we could not use it in public; we kept it [hidden]. The way we got it was that my brother had come to the United States and had brought [the weapon] with him when he returned. In the later days, they would ask for weapons. They would take Armenians and beat them asking “Where did you buy it? What did you do? Why did you buy it?” Especially in the later days, they searched everywhere [for the weapons]. They even acted shamelessly by dropping shells on the rooftops and searching the houses and accusing [the Armenians] by saying that “We found this shell in your house so you also have a weapon. Give it to us.” “I don’t have any. I did not buy any; I don’t have any.” It was no use. They didn’t care, They would take [the Armenians] to the school. They would tie his hands and legs and beat him, beat him very severely.

RH Now in 1908, the Hurriyet was called freedom. Did the relationship between Armenians and Turks change at that time?

BS A bit, a bit… It was changed a little but at the end, it even got worse.

RH Did you get the news of Adana massacres in 1909?

BS As I said, my brother went there…

RH Yes, did you get [the news] from him?

BS Yes, yes. And we had relatives there; one of them was already murdered.

RH Who lived in your house in 1913 and ’14?

BS In ’14, it was already three of us: my father…

RH Did the others already leave?

BS [The others] had already gone.

RH And your brother who was twenty, where was he?

BS He had gone already: they had taken him.

RH When was he taken?

BS [He] was taken at the end of ’14.

RH Then, was he still with you?

BS Yes, he was with us.

RH Now, did the massacres and relocation happen suddenly or did it happen that they came and tell you that such things were about to happen?

BS Nothing was openly announced in the public but there was some rumors in the air; later, they started gathering people; The soldiers they took never returned; they didn’t let them come home, it began…

RH Was that the beginning?

BS The beginning was when [the Turks began] taking [people away from their homes].

RH What year was that?

BS It was, possibly, in ’14.

RH And how did they take them [away]?

BS “You are a soldier,’ they would say, “You are in that age.” And this way they took them.

RH Did they come to your door and ask?

BS Yes, yes!

RH Who were the ones asking [the questions]?

BS They were policemen.

RH What did they wear?

BS Their uniform, they had their own police uniform.

RH Now, are those village police or were they brought from somewhere else?

BS I cannot say if they were villagers or not. Of course, there were from the village too; they came from outside too; they might have come from Mezire.

RH And did they give some time to prepare or was it immediate?

BS They would say “In two or three days, you must eventually come, you must come.” They would come and take [the Armenians].

RH Was the school closed by this time?

BS I think, it was closed after, at the end of ’14;

RH And you stopped going to school?

BS There was no more school. They have already begun the massacres in 1915. They gathered the adult men in 1915 around May. They thought they were being taken to pull and gather weeds.

RH What happened between May 14th and 15th? Did anything happen in this period?

BS During May 14th and 15th? We had some troubles but we did not know what was going to happen.

RH Did you know that the nation would soon be murdered?

BS We felt that there was something, but we did not know what it was.

RH But did you go to work every day or…?

BS Yes. At the end, when the adult men were gathered…

RH How were they gathered?

BS They gathered in our village like this: There were weeds -- I think it was May because you could see the greens. [They took them] as if they would be pulling out the weeds, … as if to pull out the weeds from the fields. They went to the fields and threw the people into a big place the Turks called khonakh (prison). Later, they came and took the rest of the men of the village and took them to that field. Then, they sent them to a village a bit further away. There was a large army base in that village. Later, they took us there as well. When they gathered all the men, they took them one by one and killed them.

RH How did you know this?

BS Because, the mothers, the wives, and the sisters would go to visit them; they would go and find out that their loved ones are missing; they would go and see that they [their loved ones] were gone.

RH What village was it in?

BS It was the village called Kegh Vank; it was called Kegh Vank.

RH How far was it?

BS Well, maybe it was an hour, an hour and a half on foot. Approximately, I don’t know well that part.

RH Then, they came on May 15th! Who came? Were those the same people?

BS Yes, it was the police; they gathered [the men] and said “We must go to pull out the weeds.”

RH Did they go door by door?

BS Yes.

RH And, did they know who lived there?

BS Of course, they knew; whenever the villagers were Turks, the police got a great assistance.

RH Did they explain? Were those men going to return?

BS Yes, they thought they would return, but they did not. They brought [them] and threw them in some place, as I said, and killed them one by one.

RH Did the Armenians use weapons?

BS At our place, they could not use the weapons at all: They had already taken all the weapons away prior to that time.

RH When did they collect the weapons?

BS They collected before that.

RH So they took everyone away?

BS No. They took the adult men males away; after that, as I said, that was in May, they also rounded up the families in June to take them away. Erzerumtsis [people from Erzerum] came before us; they were exiled all the way to Kharpert; we were still in our homes. Do you understand? They had taken the adult men. They told us not to go if we had the chance to do so, because exiles before us had been murdered, lost, raped and endangered in many ways. So, the exiles reached till Kharpert, and they were saying “Don’t go, if you can, stay here.” Listen, when they gathered everyone, my mother, my sisters, the other sisters, and my two sisters left their places. One of my sisters came to leave with my mother; my middle sister was to go with my mother but instead, she stayed in the village with someone’s interference; they had a neighbor who told my mother “Don’t take her, give her to me and when you are freed, return and she is yours, and if you don’t return, I will send her to the brothers.”

RH Was this man a Turk?

BS This man was a Turk.

RH And, didn’t the government give the order… Actually, they could not punish for that.

BS No! They could. If wanted to keep… If I were waiting [for my parents], he could keep [me]; he had two daughters; this man was already a soldier: he had been fighting at the front in Erzerum… He spoke like that, and my mother listened to him; they gathered the whole village and led away; very few were left, very few.

RH Now, did they take men to the other village and slowly kill them?

BS They killed…

RH And, did their mothers go and visit them?

BS They visited [them].

RH They were saying “[Turks] are killing gradually.”

BS Yes. The mothers would come and see that they were missing. For example, they would go and see that my father was missing, my uncle, my other uncle and others were gone.

RH Were there soldiers in the streets at that time?

BS There were [soldiers] at the gathering place; even if you wanted, you could not go in to see your relatives.

RH And, when did the Erzerumtsis come? Did the Erzerumtsis pass through your village?

Second Tape Begins

RH So, did the people from Erzerum pass through your village?

BS Yes. The caravan came and passed that way… the rest stayed there… whoever saw my parents, told them “Don’t go.” My mother brought a girl home and kept her. Later, she took her to Mezire and gave her to the orphanage.

RH When was this? Was this before the relocations?

BS It was before [our relocation], yes. We have not gone yet.

RH What did you see in Mezire when you went there? Was your relocation there?

BS I don’t know. No.

RH But, were the people already gathered?

BS The people were gathered.

RH But, if you wanted to go somewhere, could you freely do so?

BS They were afraid but they still went. That way… They went with friends, as I said, they gathered everyone in front of us and took them away. I stayed there.

RH Did they gather everyone at one time?

BS That first time, they gathered just once, wait till I tell you; when my mother went there, I was sitting by the window and watching; the Turks took all the things from our house; my mother had them bound together.

RH Didn’t [the Turks] let them to take their things with them?

BS They weren’t able to, how could they? They had to walk! They had to walk, they had to go on foot; naturally, they took a donkey with them to put the food on it; in the end, when they went after the first caravan, no one was left from that caravan. No one returned; everyone was killed; it was at the beginning of November… They gathered people again at the end of December.

RH Now, I apologize, I have a question. Did they send you a letter before the first relocation or only to the house…?

BS They gathered from house to house.

RH One time?

BS Yes.

RH Did they give you a reason?

BS They were saying “You have to go somewhere else but you will come back.”

RH Why? But why?

BS They knew the real reason why.

RH And, did they wear the same uniforms as the soldiers…

BS Uniforms! Yes, soldiers, yes.

RH Then, did you stay with your neighbor?

BS Yes, she gave me up to the neighbor; then, my mother left [me].

RH When your mother left, did you get the news that she was murdered?

BS There was no news. Who would inform? Everyone left and never returned… We knew that they had been killed. Just as the people from Erzerum said, they were killed.

RH Then, did you stay with the Turks for 4-5 months?

BS Yes.

RH Did you have to change your name?

BS They changed it, but it wasn’t that different; they changed; they almost changed, yes.

RH Was half of the village empty?

BS Yes, yes.

RH And, what did you do during these 4-5 months?

BS I was a servant at that Turk’s place. Afterward, one of my sisters came there too. We took all our possessions to their house, all our possessions.

RH But, didn’t you see Turks taking them?

BS But, they had servants who went there and brought our property.

RH Were those servants Turks or Kurds?

BS They were Turks; all of them were local Turks; because they did not let the Kurds to take [Armenians’ possessions], they took it themselves. Why would they give it to the Turks? /laughing.-transcriber/. We went there and worked for several months. My father dug a hole in our house and stored grain in there; if one of us escaped, we would take the wheat from there in order not to starve; in the end, when my mother left and all our belongings were taken, they destroyed all our houses.

RH Who destroyed them?

BS The Turks [destroyed our houses]; first, they dug in order to find things, to find gold and weapons; they would find stored things; my sister said “If they go and find that hole and take it, they would bother us; we are at their house so let’s tell them.” We told them and they immediately went and dug it out and brought to their house, and when the time came to prepare things for the winter, they used it [the wheat]; my sister said “Give a little [wheat] to me, I have to go to Mezire.” They said, ok; we were about to leave and when we were ready they said “It is hardly enough for us.” They stored the grain in one of the rooms, saying “It is hardly enough for us.” Later on, my sister said that she would take me to the orphanage to stay there. We had this in mind when I went to bring some water in the morning. I saw some guards in the houses where there were some Armenians left; there were policemen; I immediately came back to the house and said “Sister, do you know there are again policemen at the houses of Armenians.” She said: “these people are saying something I don’t understand. Probably there is again something happening, a new exile”. There was a door going to the roof. She said “Open this door and I will run through it, then they won’t give you to them; if I stay here, they will give both of us away.” I opened and she left. Then, I closed the door. Those people gathered that day at the house and were preparing some dough. They noticed that my sister was missing: They asked “Where is she? Where is she? Where is she?” Finally, they went to the neighbor’s house where she was hiding and found her; half an hour later, the police came, and they gave both my sister and me away: we were exiled.

RH Who gave you away? Did the Turks give you away?

BS The Turks gave us away.

RH Why?

BS They gave us away saying “let them to be cleansed.” Do you understand?

RH But, weren’t those the same Turks that promised…?

BS Yes, yes! The police came to their house, and they gave us to the police. We didn’t have much on us, just a dress. Even though we had money and clothes, we couldn’t take any of it with us; they took it from us. Just like that; we went out; they took us all to the school, and gathered us all there.

RH Was it winter?

BS It was November. The winter had begun.

RH How many were you?

BS It was my sister and me; there were many, quite many people in the group.

RH Approximately?

BS Approximately, there were 100-150 people from our village; then, they took us to Mezire; there were people from other villages too.

RH How did they take you to Mezire?

BS On foot!

RH And now, how did you begin the march? All at once set for the trip?

BS They took us out and made us walk..

RH Who took you?

BS The soliders… Those policemen.

RH Were they on horse?

BS No, no. They were on foot.

RH How many soldiers were there?

BS I don’t remember much. It might have been 10-15 or not.

RH And, were all of them women and children?

BS They were women and children; there were no men among those who stayed. It is
possible that there were 12, 13, 14 year-old boys, but there were no adult men.

RH Then, you… Did you go to Mezire…? What did you do after?

BS They took us to a graveyard in Mezire. They gathered all of us there. From there, they took us to the same place that I already mentioned they had taken the men – to Kegh Vank. They drove us toward that place.

RH Now, what other villages did they take people from? Where did you join them?

BS That…We joined at Geghvank. They took everyone there.

RH Didn’t they take to the graveyard in Mezire?

BS They took us, they took us from our village; it is close to the other villages in that area; they took from nearby villages too.

RH Which villages?

BS There was one called Vartatil, Yertmunig, and Mourin in that area.

RH Then, your other sister was in one of these groups, right?

BS One of my sisters was with me, yes.

RH And the other?

BS The others went before that and they were murdered; they were not with us any more; anyhow, they took us from the graveyard and brought us to that place…

RH Were they the same solidiers?

BS They were the same soldiers.

RH Did you spend the night there or did you go to Mezire?

BS No, we stayed there for the night.

RH Outside?

BS Yes, outside.

RH Did they give you food?

BS No!

RH Did they give you water?

BS No, they did not give us anything that day.

RH Was the Armenian population of Mezire there or ..?

BS Some of them were already gone, and now the Turks remained.

RH Did anyone from there help you?

BS They were not able to.

RH Why?

BS They were afraid to get caught; they were too afraid; anyways, when we were about to leave, there was a woman from our village who told me “Daughter, don’t go, stay here.” She pulled me aside; then, when I saw my sister leaving, I did not stay and ran after her. As soon as I ran, one of the soldiers used a leader whip; I don’t remember the English word for it; my hand was immediately wounded by the strike of that whip. I did not pay attention to it because I was running after my sister. My sister and I went to Kegh Vank from there. They led us to Dikranagerd on foot.

RH How far was Kegh Vank?

BS It was about two and a half hours of walk.

RH Was it safe on the road…Were you in danger?

BS We were not harmed on that road but we saw dead bodies all over the road and the wounded. When we were going to Dikranagerd, we saw the dead bodies of the people from the previous groups that were brought to the woods (we were forced to go through the woods).

RH Sorry, we have to go back to Kegh Vank . How did you get to Kegh Vank?

BS They gathered all of us there…

RH From other villages too?

BS Yes.

RH How many were you?

BS It might have been a thousand or five hundred; it was such a big crowd; they forced us to walk.

RH Didn’t you spend the night there?

BS Yes, we only spent one night there.

RH And did you see any dead bodies?

BS No, there were not any dead bodies over there.

RH And the Armenian population of that area…

BS There were not any Armenians there; there were no Armenians. Even if there were any Armenians, they could not be seen because they were afraid to get caught. They cannot be blamed for that. As I have already mentioned, my paternal aunt escaped from there; she left Kegh Vank.

RH Where did she go?

BS She escaped and came to the village; she was not taken away like us.

RH Was she Turkified?

BS No! She came to the place where she used to work, worked there and eventually got free.

RH Did they give you food that night?

BS No, they did not give us any food.

RH What did you eat?

BS Whatever food was sold over there if people could buy, they did; if they could not buy, there was nothing to eat.

RH Did you have any money?

BS My sister had some. She had a little in her pocket but we had to spend it on a piece of bread.

RH Did you leave Kegh Vank the next morning?

BS Yes.

RH The whole group or the human caravans…

BS The whole group. They were always making the whole group to walk.

RH Now, how many soldiers were guarding the second group?

BS There were about 10-15 soldiers.

RH Were they guarding a thousand people? Were those policemen or were they soldiers?

BS They were policemen. And we had one horseman then. That person would go and prepare a place for the caravan to spend the night. When that person was behind us, we walked slowly. If that person, for example, would leave around four or five o’clock to find a place for us /sighing. -transcriber/, the policemen would bother us a lot; they would beat us and rob us.

RH How did they rob you?

BS They would say “Do you have any money? Give it up, your clothes too. Everything.”

RH Did other Turks come to assist them?

BS The Kurds would come sometimes. They would bring and sell bread and cheese, and they would take our clothes and everything else; they would take away our shoes. Anything that they saw, they would take.

RH Did anyone die from disease or exhaustion on the road?

BS They died. They were killed. And if they were sick and were not able to walk, they were killed.

RH Now, where did you go from Kegh Vank? Where was the first stop?

BS I think it was at Mardin.

RH How far was Mardin?

BS It was quite far.

RH Was it a distance of a day or two?

BS I think we got there in a day. And, it was raining that day so hard, so hard. They took us and left there in the hot weather, around the garbage and an awful smell…oh my
God. It was terrible.

RH Did you walk the whole day or…

BS Yes, yes.

RH Till, what was the name, I forgot?

BS Badashkan.

RH No, no.

BS Mardin?

RH Yes. Did you witness any misfortunes before you got there? Did they rob you on the first day?

BS They did not rob us on the first day. But as I said, we were robbed later. The Kurds would mix with the human caravan so no one would notice them. The whole caravan, the group would stay close together so that individuals could not be seen. It was like that.

RH Could you stay behind?

BS If you stayed behind, you would be killed. They killed those who stayed behind. When we passed through those places, as I have already mentioned, there were dead bodies that had blackened from the blood that had run out.

RH Where was this now? Was this in the village?

BS No, it was on the road.

RH Now, did you spend one night in this village?

BS Yes.

RH Were there any Armenians there?

BS Naturally, there were plenty Armenians over there. We were kept outside an Armenian city.

RH Didn’t anyone help you?

BS No. There was no help, no help.

RH And, did you wear the same clothes?

BS Yes.

RH Was there any medicine, any food?

BS There was not anything… When they take you to be killed, do you think you are going to be given a medicine? There was not anything.

RH Where did you go from your village the next morning?

BS We walked through the mountains to Dikranagerd. We walked for ten days.

RH Without a stop?

BS Without a stop.

RH Where did you sleep at nights?

BS In the open.

RH And what did you eat?

BS As I have said, whatever we could get our hands on.

RH Did you stay by any village or a city?

BS No, no!

RH You were traveling for ten days, what did you see? What kind of misfortune did you witness?

BS As I have said, they would beat, kill, and rob.

RH Did they kidnap any girls?

BS It happened, yes. I remember there was a woman from our village that had a baby in the evening. In the morning, she took her baby with her, by her side, and started walking. I don’t know how long she carried the baby with her. We went a bit farther through the mountains when we saw a little girl abandoned. Her mother left her there and went and she was crying. /Pause. She is unable to speak from the excitement.-transcriber/I saw it.

RH Did you cross over any rivers?

BS When we passed through Dikranagerd, there was river there; there was a monastery right at the bank of the river. We thought they were going to throw all of us into the river. There were dead bodies in the monastery. When we went there, we thought that we would also die there. And many times, when we would pass through the mountains, we would think that Turks were waiting there to kill us. They would even whistle and tell us that they wanted to kill some of us; there would be a chaos, everyone would start to cry but then we would notice that they wanted us to continue to walk; we thought, we were to be thrown into the river because the river was passing through a stable at that monastery.

RH Was this by the city Dikranagerd?

BS We passed the city, but it was close to it.

RH Did you pass through the city?

BS No, they would take us through the mountains.

RH And, did you see any bodies… men and women?

BS Yes, yes. I told you that there was a place that we went where they gathered all those bodies in the stable.

RH Then, did you get to this monastery in ten days?

BS Yes.

RH And were those the same soldiers that led you?

BS I think so. It is possible that some of them were replaced in Dikranagerd.

RH How did you survive the thirst? Did you have water…

BS We would even drink the rainwater and if they saw they did not let us. We wanted to drink the rainwater stored in the footsteps (left on the ground) but they did not let us drink the water, they would hit us.

RH When they were robbing, did everyone in the caravan move or did they stop and watch?

BS No, no, no! It moved; they would run; they would run to escape; I went to the monastery; the monastery that we were forced into, had two stories; downstairs and upstairs.
My sister and I were on the upper floor; my sister went downstairs and saw that two doctors came to take women. As nurses or to do sewing.…

RH Were those doctors Turks?

BS Yes. My sister came upstairs and said “You know, the doctors came to take women for laundry, sewing or being a nurse. Would you like to go?” “No,” I said, “I will not go. Would you go?” She said “No, I… I cannot sew” (my sister’s arm was injured).

RH How was it injured?

BS It was injured at home…

RH How was your eye at that time?

BS My eye was cured at that time. She said “If I come there, they will kill me and you will feel worse. You go and if I escape, fine, if not, what can I do?” I said “I will not go.” Finally, I don’t know what happened but the doctor pulled me aside. They put me in the other group and did not let me to return. I told my sister “I will not go.” She asked me “How far are you going to go? What are you going to do? Go!” My sister was older, she was twenty years old /Being excited, she pauses and then holding her tears, continues.-transcriber/. She loved me very much. Then, she left. There was a woman from our village. I called her and said “Let’s stay with each other.” Finally, we left. They divided us in groups, fifty people in each; they took us to the military base in Dikranagerd.

RH Did they also take your sister?

BS My sister did not come. My sister went with the caravans.

RH And you?

BS I went with those doctors’ group.

RH Why didn’t you stay?

BS Sorry?

RH Why didn’t you stay?

BS Where?

RH With the caravans.

BS Where will they take me? They will take me to be killed.

RH Didn’t your sister want to come with you?

BS She did not want to come. My sister did not want to go with me. She said “If I come, I will not be able to work and I will cause you problems.” My sister did not come; instead, she sent me; they took us to the military base.

RH How far was it?

BS It was quite far. It was about 5-6 miles away; It was very far; They took us there.

RH Who took you there?

BS Those doctors took us there. We walked there.

RH Were there soldiers with them?

BS They did not have soldiers with them. I think, we only had those two with us. They took us to the military base to give us food… They put us to work. As many women they took that many soldiers they needed to prepare food for.

RH Did you enter the city of Dikranagerd?

BS We did not come to the city; we stayed outside.

RH Were there dead bodies there?

BS There wasn’t any in that area but there were in the mountainous areas. Yes. Then, we went there and stayed for a day. At the end, they took us to a school in Dikranagerd
and left us there; it was a big Armenian school.

RH Was it being used?

BS Yes.

RH And were there Armenians there?

BS Most of the Armenians had been exiled. There were Assyrians and Chaldeans. And the Armenians could not be seen because they were afraid. They took us there; It was guarded by the soldiers; we were under the military supervision there.

RH Which military?

BS Turkish, Turkish. We did laundry there; some of us did the laundry, others made blankets for the Turks. The hospital… And that two or three months…probably 2 months…

RH Then, what were you doing for three months?

BS We did the laundry, and we sewed.

RH What language did you speak with each other?

BS We spoke Armenian.

RH And was there any misfortune? Did anyone bother you?

BS They kept us safe there because we had to work.

RH Did they feed you well?

BS No.

RH So didn’t they feed you?

BS Yes, they fed us there even if they did not want to. They fed us and we worked. Finally…

RH Where did you stay?

BS We stayed in that school. Later, some soldiers came from Bitlis, Mush, Erzerum, and other places; More soldiers came from the battle of Canakkale. When the hospitals were full, they left some women at the laundry place and took others to look after the wounded. I was a nurse; I would dress the wounds; I did that for more than a year.

RH Were all of them Turkish soldiers?

BS All of them were Turkish soldiers. Anyways, we would go there every day. A bit farther from there, our… we were in the city. But those hospitals were outside the city gate; we would walk there, but we had a guard with us: A military man. At the end, I was a nurse there for four years.

RH Four years?

BS Four years, till 1919.

RH Did you want to stay there?

BS Where was I supposed to go?

RH And did the same fifty people stay?

BS Some of them stayed, others left. The majority stayed.

RH And did the Armenians still hide? Were they still afraid?

BS Yes, yes.

RH Were they in hiding for four years?

BS Yes. They were afraid.

RH Was there a ceremony at the church? There was not, was there?

BS No, there was not. But lately, people would gather in the churchyard. Because, it was used; we would go and do the laundry there and other things. At the end of the fourth year, my sisters’ husband’s brother was in the U. S.; He came from the U. S. to find his family; He came to Aleppo; My sister was staying in Nusaybin.

RH What is Nusaybin?

BS Nusaybin is a city, it is a Kurdish city. She walked over there and stayed. She stayed there for four years.

RH Then, she was not killed, was she?

BS No. Kurds took her in to be a servant.

RH Did she tell you what happened to the rest of the caravan?

BS The remaining survivors continued further and she had no information about them after that; like me, I did not know that my sister was alive for four years. My sister left Nusaybin around 1919. She went to Aleppo; when others escaped, she came to Aleppo; my sister’s husband’s brother came from the U. S. and found her. She was in the military base in Aleppo. It was a very large military base (she says “from here to there”, evidently pointing out the size). He found my sister there and told her that he was going to Kharpert (to find his wife and children. She told him “When you go Kharpert, go to Dikranagerd. My sister was taken to Dikranagerd to work at the hospital. Go and see if she is still alive or dead.” That man came to the church in Dikranagerd.

RH How did he come?

BS I think he walked there. I don’t know how he got to Dikranagerd, but he came to the church by walking and asking people about me. He was told that “Yes, she is working at the hospital.” I was informed that someone is looking for me; I wondered was it my brother, my mother, or my father? I came and saw that I did not know that man. I asked him “Who are you? I don’t recognize you?” He told me “I am your older sister’s husband’s brother.” He had been in the U. S. so I could not recognize him. Then, he said “I came from you sister’s place.” When he said /excited.-transcriber/, it was like finding a treasure for me. He said: “Your sister is in Aleppo, and she is looking for you.” I did not have any means to write to my sister and tell her that I was alive, etc. At that time, at the end of ‘19, the caravans went there, and whoever wanted could go there.

RH Didn’t the Turks force them to stay anymore?

BS No. I wanted to go to Aleppo and went there with the caravans.

RH Do you have memory about Dikranagerd? What kind of city was Dikranagerd?

BS It was a stone built city; it was a very great city.

RH Did you have any connections with the Armenians living there?

BS With very few. We would go and visit each other, but we were very busy so we could not do it all the time.

RH Do you have any special memory about Dikranagerd?

BS That was it. What kind of memory would I have? My memory is that the Armenian bishop…when they put us in the school, there was a house behind the school, The Armenians would tell stories that he (the bishop) was taken there. The Turks cut his fingers and nails one by one each day. They tortured him to death like that. And the Armenians were afraid to come out. Anyhow, I came and found my sister…

RH Sorry, did your sister’s husband’s go to Kharpert?

BS Yes, he went there.

RH And you with the caravan…

BS I went to Aleppo with another caravan.

RH How many days was it in Aleppo? Who led the caravan?

BS They were Turks.

RH Were they Turks?

BS Yes.

RH Didn’t they cause any problems?

BS No. But everyone else was Armenian. It was an Armenian group.

RH Did your fifty people go there too?

BS Some of them went, others did not because the war of Erzerum began and they took other to Van. i did not go there, but whoever wanted, did. Some girls went there and never returned. Several of them went to their desired places. It happened like that. Eventually people went to their desired places by their desired means. A lot of Armenians went to Kharpert, but I did not want to return there. When I came to Aleppo, I wrote a letter to my brothers…

RH When you went with the caravan, did you pay them?

BS Yes, I paid them when I went to Aleppo.

RH Where did you get the money from?

BS I told you that I would dress wounds back then, so they would pay me a little. I would go and take care of the wounds of private individuals in the city and I would have a little money. They would pay me a little. I got the money doing that so I was able to go to Aleppo.

RH How many days did it take to get to Aleppo?

BS We came to Mardin with the caravan, I think in one day. Yes, I think, it took a day. We came to Mardin from Dikranagerd in a day, I cannot recall much. And, we went to Aleppo by train from there.

RH Were there any Armenians still in Mardin?

BS Yes, there were some Armenians in Mardin.

RH Did you see them?

BS No. At the place where we stayed overnight, were refugees like us.

RH Did the caravans rest anywhere?

BS We rested somewhere; we spent a night or two over there and then came to Aleppo by a train.

RH Did you pay for the train then?

BS No. We did not pay for the train because it transported the refugees.

RH Who transported?

BS I think it was the Relief. If I am not mistaken, it was the American Relief.

RH How many days did it take the train to get to Aleppo?

BS I think it took two days to get there.

RH Where did you eat?

BS We would buy food and eat it. There was not any private dining place on the train. Finally, I reached Aleppo and went to the military base where all the refuges were gathered.

RH Why did you go the military base now?

BS Because everyone was there, and we were not familiar with the city, so where would we go?

RH And were all the Armenians there?

BS All the Armenians refugees were gathered at the military base there.

RH Who supervised that military base?

BS The military base that we went to was guarded by the English soldiers. And they also had Armenian fighters that defended the base.

RH Did they give out any food?

BS If I am not mistaken, you had to get your own food.

RH How many people were there in the military base?

BS I could say they were by thousands. There were many people over there. When we went there, the Englishmen called off their army after one or two months we had been there.

RH Did they call off the army immediately?

BS They called off immediately, they went… When they left, all the Armenians living there were put in the trains and sent to Cilicia.

RH Who sent them?

BS I think the Brits or… When we went to Cilicia, the Frenchmen were there; I don’t remember if the ones that transported us were Englishmen or Americans or somebody else.

RH Did you find your sister during that month?

BS When I went to Aleppo, I was going up the stairs when I saw my sister sweeping the floors /she gets excited from happiness.-transcriber/. We hugged each other and we were extremely happy. It is amazing the way she survived, the way we found each other; all this time she was living in Nusaybin.

RH Was she living in the military unit too?

BS She came to the military base too.

RH Was there an orphanage in Aleppo?

BS Yes there was, but we did not think of it at that time.

RH Was there a church?

BS Yes, there was.

RH Did you go to church?

BS We went there once because we did not stay there for a long time; it was quite far away.

RH Now, did she work that month…?

BS My sister? My sister could not work; my sister wrote a letter to her husband who had some money.

RH How did she know of her husband’s whereabouts?

BS She knew that her husband was in the U. S.

RH Which city?

BS (Whitinsville). The same way I knew that my brothers were in the U. S., the same way she knew about him. There was a guy from our village that knew my sister’s husband;
This guy was with us during the exile. He was 2 years older than me and he knew how to write a letter and they knew each other. So he found his address and wrote him a letter, asking him for some money; my sister’s husband immediately sent some money.

RH Did your sister’s husband go to the U. S.?

BS Yes.

RH How?

BS He went there before. He went there before.

RH But he was in your group.

BS No, he was…

RH No? Which one was in your group?

BS That young man that wrote a letter [was in our group]. His last name was Googooian. There was someone called Soghomon Googooian. He was.

RH But, you were not engaged at that time, were you?

BS No, no. I got married here.

RH Then, you did not stay in Aleppo.

BS As I have said, we stayed in Aleppo for a while. I wrote a letter to my brothers telling them that I also survived. I had not got an answer from my brothers yet when my sister’s husband sent her money to help get her to the U. S. When I was found, my sister told me “I will not leave you here and go alone, you must come with me.” I needed to wait to get some news from my brothers. I wrote a letter to my brother informing them that I was free, that Nonik (my sister’s name was Nonik) was going to go to the U. S., because her husband sent her money.
39:36 My brother, my elder brother immediately wrote me a letter telling me “Go with her. We will send 300 dollars to you so you can go with her.” By the time I got the letter and the money, we were sent away from Aleppo, because the Englishmen left and we did not get the money to set out for our journey.

RH How were you supposed to get the money?

BS Through the American Relief. We immigrated to Cilicia.

RH How far was that?

BS It is quite far.

RH Did they take all the Armenians?

BS They took all the Armenians.

RH What kind of transportation did they use?

BS On a train. They took us on a train. When we got to Cilicia, we wrote another letter to my brothers or to my sister’s husband informing them that we were not able to get the money because we had been sent to Cilicia.

RH Where in Cilicia?

BS To the city of Cilicia. There was a station; there were barracks…

RH Did they feed you?

BS No. We were supposed to get food on our own.

RH Didn’t this have anything to do with the food?

BS No, no. He had sent the money, but we did not get it. Our problem was about the money transfer.

RH Didn’t anyone help you?

BS I did not see any help. Of course, some people got help but I don’t know; at the end, we wrote another letter; my brother got the Aleppo money back with difficulties; they again sent us money to Cilicia; by the time we got our visas, we had many problems…

RH What kind of problems?

BS The Turks used to shoot on the barracks all the time; they wanted to harm the Armenians.

RH Who defended you?

BS The French helped us at that time, but the ungrateful French also left us.

RH When did they leave?

BS I arrived there at the end of ’20…at the beginning of ‘20… no, possibly, they left in June or in July.

RH Then, in what year did you leave Aleppo?

BS If I am not mistaken, it was in ’19.

RH And how long did you stay in Cilicia?

BS We stayed quite some time in Cilicia. When we went to Cilicia, I worked at the hospital again as a nurse.

RH For how long?

BS About 5-6 months. For the Armenians… There was an Armenian hospital there; all the refugees from both Hadjin and Zeitun came there when the war began; we took care of them.

RH And what was your sister doing?

BS My sister did not do anything. As I have already said, her arm was injured.

RH And who delivered the letters?

BS I think it came under the Relief’s name.

RH And where did you stay?

BS We stayed in the barracks…They were sending to Cilicia by barracks’ numbers.

RH What kind of life did you have there? Did you gather together and sing at nights or was it separate…

BS If we managed, yes. We were like neighbors; we could come and make conversations, laugh, etc.; everyone had his/her own problems and pains /sighing.-transcriber/. We did not have much to laugh about.

RH Then, did you stay six months at that hospital?

BS Yes, I stayed at the hospital.

RH Were there other things? Was there a church?

BS Yes, there was.

RH Did you go there?

BS I could not go often because I was already working always.

RH Were there local Armenians?

BS Yes, there were Armenians.

RH Did they help you?

BS No, no. They hardly could help themselves; I only had one relative that I visited.

RH Didn’t they visit you? Didn’t the refugees and the locals visit each other?

BS If they did, it meant that they were relatives; if they were not relatives, they would not visit each other; it was not one or two persons; it was a rather large group.

RH Then, you did not see any orphanage, did you?

BS I did not go to the orphanage.

RH Now until that time, had you heard of the Republic of Armenia?

BS I… I wanted to go back but we did not have any news; the Turks used to ask us when the Russians approached: “When the Russians come here, will you defend us?” We used to say “We will defend with our lives.” What else are you supposed to say? But we did not have any news if there was or will be an Armenia until… Until I learned about it when I came to the U. S., I think. I came here in November of 1920.

RH Now, did the refuges help each other?

BS If they could, they did help each other a little bit, yes.

RH But you always spoke Armenian and never forgot.

BS When I was working at the Turkish hospital, I used to speak Turkish.

RH Did you forget the Armenian language?

BS No, not at all.

RH Did they change your name?

BS They changed my name over there.

RH What was your name?

BS They gave me some Turkish name.

RH What was it?

BS Rajia!

RH And then, in Cilicia?

BS We came to Cilicia and worked there; every evening we had problems with chetes (special Turkish squad formed to eliminate the Armenian population); they were military men, and they wanted to attack us, every evening. There were Armenian volunteer fighter who defended us every day; we were always told at nights: “Stay inside! Don’t come out! Be careful!” They also used to say “Prepare yourselves to run when there is a danger.” We spent our lives like this until… Not to forget to tell you that when we got the money for the journey to the U. S., we got our visas and went ‘til Tarsus.

RH How did you get there?

BS On a train.

RH Only your sister and you?

BS No, there were many but my sister and I... we had our tickets…my brother had already sent the money. We went ‘til Tarsus when the rails were cut.

RH Who cut the rails?

BS The Turks. Then we had to return to Cilicia.

RH Why were you going to Tarsus?

BS We were supposed to get to Mersin from Tarsus to get to the ship and come to the U. S. That was the way [to America]; the road was destroyed so we returned to Cilicia. We stayed there for about three weeks while they fixed the railroads; we set on the journey again; we were relived from throwing away our visas /laughing.-transcriber/; we came to the U. S.

RH Did you work during those three weeks that you were back in Cilicia?

BS No, I did not work anymore because we could return any day.

RH Did you get your visas with difficulties?

BS We got our visas with many difficulties.

RH Then, how far was the trip to Tarsus the second time?

BS We got there in twelve hours by train.

RH Later, did you leave the same day…?

BS We left on the same day, and we returned the same day.

RH How did you go the second time?

BS We again went there by a train.

RH And on the same day to Mersin?

BS Yes, we got to Mersin.

RH How long did that take?

BS I think we got to Tarsus in a day, if I am not mistaken.

RH Did you stay there overnight?

BS Yes, we stayed there overnight; later, we took the ship to the U. S. and came here.

RH Were there other Armenians with you? Were there many of them?

BS Yes, they were plenty.

RH And was the only objective for getting to Mersin was the journey to the U. S.? Did they also have relatives?

BS Yes, they also had to relocate; they had to get to their destinations because they could not stay.

RH What kind of ship was it?

BS French… It was a Greek ship that took us to Greece; In Greece, we again took a ship to Marseille. Then we took a ship called the Mexico from Marseille to America.

RH Now, why did you decide to come to the U. S.? Because your brother was here, or was there another reason?

BS No. The other reason was that we had no place to go; we had no house, no place to stay; we had no mother, no father; where were we supposed to go? My brothers were here, so naturally, we came here.

RH Before you took the Greek ship, did you take any examinations?

BS Yes. Too many,

RH No bons yeux?

BS Mainly at the Castle Garden

RH Well, in what year did you take the ship?

BS I cannot remember the date but when we came to the U. S., we took the ship named Mexico; we were on that ship for 18 days. In the sea. It was very small.

RH Now, were there many people on the Greek ship?

BS Yes. It was full.

RH What kind of ship was that? A passenger ship?

BS It was a Greek ship…Yes, a passenger ship.

RH Did they feed you well?

BS It was all right.

RH Did people treat you bad because of your refugee status?

BS No.

RH Where did you go in Greece?

BS In Pira

RH How long did you stay in Pira?

BS We stayed there for 2-3 days at the hotel until the ship was ready; then, we got on board of that ship with our friends.

RH Where they from your village?

BS No, no.

RH Where were they from?

BS They were from Pira.

RH Did you have any problems in Greece?

BS No, not any more.

RH Did you have any money?

BS Yes, we had money at that time because [my brothers] sent us the money for both the journey and for the food.

RH Did you have any problems on the way from Greece to Marseilles?

BS No, we did not have any problems.

RH How many days did it take?

BS I don’t remember how long it took from Greece to Marseilles, but it took us 18 days from Marseilles to the U. S. /laughing.-transcriber/.

RH How long did you stay in Marseilles?

BS I think we stayed there for two weeks.

RH At a hotel?

BS At a hotel.

RH Were there many Armenians?

BS Yes.

RH Was there a church?

BS We did not go to church, no.

RH You got on board of the Mexico, were there many Armenians on it?

BS Quite.

RH Did people treat you well?

BS They did not bother us at all.

RH Where did you sleep?

BS On those things…

RH On the beds?

BS On the beds.

RH Where did you get in 18 days?

BS We got to New York.

RH Ellis Island?

BS Yes.

RH Castle Garden?

BS Yes.

RH What did you expect of the U. S. before you got there? What pictures did you have from America?

BS Of course, we had a good picture. When we came here, we had some problems: We had problems [at immigration control] because my sister’s injured arm. When we got to Castle Garden, they separated my sister and me. I did not have any problems, but she was taken away because of her injured arm. I was afraid that they were not going to let her come with me; at the end, eventually they just let her go; we stayed there for a day, until my sister’s husband came to meet us.

RH You didn’t have that eye problem any more, did you?

BS No, I didn’t.

RH How long did you wait for your sister?

BS I waited for my sister for 3-4 hours.

RH On Ellis Island?

BS Yes.

RH What did you do after she joined you?

BS She joined me, and we waited ‘til my sister’s husband came to meet us; when he came to pick us up, we got out of the ship with the guarantee that someone had come to pick us up, And then we left for Whitinsville.

RH Did they know of the day of your arrival?

BS Yes. Yes, we had written a letter and had informed them of our departure.

RH What did you like in America during the first days of your stay?

BS When we had spent those horrible days and had seen many misfortunes, naturally, everything else in the U. S. seemed very nice.

RH How did you get to Whitinsville?

BS By car. My sister’s husband’s friends came and took us to Whitinsville by car.

RH How many years did you stay in Whitinsville?

BS I stayed there only for couple of months.

RH What were you doing…?

BS We weren’t doing anything because we were guests; my brothers were in California so we were waiting for our brothers.

RH Did you go to church in Whitinsville?

BS No, we didn’t go at all; because my sister’s husband never went to church, we couldn’t go; we did not go to church not even a single time.

RH What did your sister’s husband do over there?

BS He was working in the factory.

RH What kind of factory?

BS He was a cook; he was rather cooking than working in the factory; he prepared the meals for couple of people since they did not have women.

RH Where did you go after these few months?

BS I came here to see my brothers.

RH Did you come alone?

BS I joined other Armenians and came here alone; my sister stayed there; I came here with some friends, because I did not speak the language.

RH Did they speak the language?

BS Yes, they did know the language, and they helped me to get to my brother’s house.

RH Where was your brother?

BS He was living near this place.

RH In Sanger?

BS Yes, in the Sanger area.

RH Did the train directly go to Fresno? Where did you stop?

BS We came on train… I got out at Tulare because those friends were from there and they took me there with them. My brother was waiting for me in Fresno. He came and looked for me everywhere but couldn’t find me. Later on, those people from Tulare brought me by car, because they knew my brother; when I explained them who I was, they told me “We know your brother; we are going to take you by car.” They brought me by car, but we were a little late. My brother was very excited, and wondering why was I so late -- that I should have arrived earlier…/laughing.-transcriber/. When they brought me here in the evening, it was November, I came to some friend’s house, to their relative’s house. So they brought me to their relatives’ house. We were supposed to go and see my brother later together with them. As I’ve said, I hadn’t seen my brother neither his wife. I saw my paternal aunt’s son’s picture in their house for the first time and was very excited about that. I said “That’s my maternal aunt’s grandson.” They asked me “How do you know that it is your maternal aunt’s grandson?” I answered, “That’s my maternal aunt’s grandson, I know.” I recognized him from long time ago when he first came to the U. S.; I realized that I was not with strange people; then, I felt a little different.

RH What year was this?

BS It was at the end of ’20; I was already here in November.

RH So, did you meet with your brother?

BS Yeah, they took us to see my brother, I believe, around six o’clock in the evening; I was told to stay in the car until my brother was informed about my arrival. Anyways, we went, he saw my brother’s wife and asked her where he could find Markar (my brother’s name was Markar); she told him “He went to get his sister; this is already the third time that he goes to get her sister and every time they tell him that she is not there.” This man told me “Come out of the car; your brother is not here.” I got out of the car and waited for while; then, my brother showed up with a cousin, a relative of ours. I think, they came together, they came to the house and saw that they had guests; after a short while, they told me “Go inside; let’s see if you recognize your brother or not.” I didn’t know which one was my brother; two men approached me; he asked me “Which one is your brother?” I said “This is my brother.” He said “How do you know if this is your brother.” I answered “He is coming towards me; he is my brother.” At the end, we got to know one another.

RH And then? Did you live with him then?

BS I lived with him for six months; at the end of the sixth month /lowering her voice.-transcriber/ I married to Mr Sarabian.

RH When did you meet each other?

BS With Mr. Sarabian? We already knew each other; my aunt’s daughter (mother’s sister’s daughter) had already married his brother back in the old country.

RH Was he from your village?

BS Yes, he was from our village; we were in-laws.

RH When did he come here?

BS He came here around ’11; He came to the U. S. in 1911.

RH Was he in Fresno too?

BS Yes, he established there.

RH So, where did you meet each other?

BS At my brother’s house; we met each other at my brother’s house; my brothers wished for our union, and we got married.

RH In what year?

BS In ’21.

RH Where did you live after that?

BS When we got married, he had twenty or twenty six acres of land on Ventura

RH What did he do?

BS He was a gardener.

RH For vineyards?

BS Yes. We stayed there for a year and a half, maybe two years, and then lost the vineyards.

RH How?

BS We couldn’t pay the bills; the prices went down, and we were unable to make a profit; then, we rented a couple of vineyards. He did that, and I worked at the packing houses.

RH Which ones?

BS For Yenovkian, for Danielian. I used to do grapes but at the end I did raisins. I worked at the Shabazian packing house.

RH In what year was this?

BS In ’23-’24.

RH Until when?

BS I worked at the packing house for a long time. At the end I worked in the vineyard.

RH What did you do?

BS Every sort of work. My husband rented a place, and I was trying to be as much useful as possible.

RH Where did you live when he was renting?

BS We had house at the place where we rented; we rented my brother’s house for three years because he had died and there was no one to help around the house; his sons were very little so we helped them out.

RH What are your brother’s sons’ names?

BS They are Antranig (Andrew), Mardiros (Martin), Nshan (Nish)

RH Do they live in Fresno now?

BS Yes. They have families here. They got married.

RH Do you remember their address?

BS Me? I don’t have the correct addresses; one of them I think is on…

RH No, not theirs. Your brother’s house that you stayed for three years…

BS Oh, here, they used to live just around the corner; I cannot remember the exact address but they don’t live there any more.

RH Then, do you rent at different places?

BS /Sighing.-transcriber/ Yes.

RH How long did this last?

BS This /counting.-transcriber/ three, four, five…we rented the house for six years; then, we bought 20 acres here at the end of ’28. We bought this place in ’46.

RH Do you remember the location of the other 20 acres?

BS The address is in Sanger but I cannot recall the exact address…It’s just behind this building.

RH Then, you came here in ’46 and until now…

BS We have been living here until now.

RH When did Mr.Sarabian die?

BS It has been four years.

RH When you came to the U. S., did any Armenian or foreign organization help you out?

BS No, no.

RH Red Cross…

BS I don’t… others got assistance but I did not have any help from any relief organization or anyone. As I have already said, I worked before; I used to work in Cilicia too; I always earned my living by working. I never got a penny of outside assistance.

RH How did you feel as an Armenian at the beginning of the 20’s? How…?

BS Naturally, an Armenian was more sympathetic to me than a foreigner.

RH And how different is an Armenian today? Is there any difference?

BS Yes

RH How different are the Armenians today? Did they have more problems back then?

BS Now, it is better than before, because Armenians were hated before.

RH Why?

BS For example, foreigners did not want Armenians; just like now they dislike Mexicans, they disliked Armenians then; but that is changed now; at least in this area, it doesn’t exist.

RH Do you belong to any Armenian or American organization these years?

BS My son belongs to the American Red Cross; I belong to the Armenian Red Cross (ARS).

RH Since ’29-’30?

BS I have been their member for 55 years; I belong to the church.

RH Which church?

BS To the Mother Church; before we had an organization whose members were from Parchanj, but now it is dissolved; now, I belong to the home for the elderly.

RH Have you been a member to all of these organizations for 20 years?

BS I belonged to the home for the elderly for two years; it’s not a lot, but to the Red Cross (ARS) , as I already said, have been for 55 years; that’s a long time, the church has been for 30 years.

RH So, you didn’t go to church for 20 years, did you?

BS Here?

RH Yes.

BS I go every day… I go there every Sunday. I belong to the church, I want to say, I am a member of a church.

RH But did you go to church in the beginning?

BS We used to go all the time; only we worked hard which is why we did not go to church that often.

RH Did you belong to any American organization?

BS No, I did not belong to any organization.

RH When did you become a citizen?

BS It was in 1944 or in ’42.

RH Did you go to school?

BS Only for a while, just to learn local things for the citizenship.

RH Did you go to other schools other than that?

BS No.

RH Where did you learn English then?

BS I did not learn how to write and read but I learned to speak on my own.

RH What is the most difficult and different thing about the U. S.?

BS I didn’t have any problems.

RH Did you try to relive the same traditions you had in the Old Country?

BS No, of course not. You can have better here, why would you try to live the old ways?

RH But, were there any traditions that you kept?

BS There might be but… /she is having a hard time to answer.-transcriber/.

RH About the U. S….

BS The U. S. is better than the country we lived in; I cannot be ungrateful to deny it.

RH What did you like most about the U. S.?

BS The government system.

RH How long did Mr.Sarabian keep those vineyards?

BS One of them he got in ’28 and the other he got, I believe, in ’46.

RH And from ’46 until when?

BS It still belongs to us.

RH Who is running it now?

BS My son runs it.

RH How many children do you have?

BS Just one.

RH What is his name?

BS [His name is] Sarkis.

RH In what year was he born?

BS In ’33.

RH When you worked here in the packing house, were there other Armenian workers?

BS Yes.

RH Was your landlord an Armenian?

BS Some of them were Armenians; Yenovkian was. Shabazian was Armenian. Other grape growers were Armenian.

RH Was there ever a strike?

BS No, no.

RH Did you have any incidents or problems working at the packing houses?

BS No. I had some difficulties because I did not know the language; but two years ago, my son had some problems with Chavez. He hurt him and caused a lot of problems.

RH How did they accept you in the packing house? Easily?

BS Yes, yes.

RH Did you have any difficulty?

BS No, we didn’t. You should be grateful for the job, with love.

RH You married to an Armenian; what is your view on an Armenian marrying a non-Armenian?

BS I don’t like it; I always tell my grandchildren to marry Armenians.

RH What language did you speak with your husband?

BS In Armenian.

RH And with your son?

BS With him also Armenian.

RH And with your grandchildren?

BS I used to speak Armenian with them but they have changed a little; because I used to take care of them before they had a babysitter; it is hard to take care of three children when you work. My daughter in law was a nurse at the hospital; she was working too; so since then they have changed and don’t speak much now. The elder tries to learn very hard but the youngest does not know at all even though he understands a little.

RH How many grandchildren do you have?

BS Three.

RH What are their names?

BS Michael, David, and Charles.

RH And how old are they?

BS Michael is 21; David is 18; Charles is 16.

RH When did your son get married?

BS It has been 23 years.

RH With who?

BS With Virginia Yeram; they are Yeramian, but people call them Yeram. They are Armenians.

RH Where are they from?

BS They are from Kharpert; her father is from Malatya; her mother is from Hussenig.

RH What did you do for your son to grow up to be an Armenian?

BS We sent him to school…

RH Which school?

BS To the Saturday Church School; we sent him there; He knows [the commandments] very well; he writes me letters in Armenian.

RH Did you teach him songs?

BS We tried but…

RH Did you try other things?

BS We used to send him to school in order… we were very busy back then; we did not have any money; we had to work.

RH Did he help you?

BS Well, from time to time.

RH Did you have an employee?

BS Sometimes; if not, we did it ourselves; we did whatever we could.

RH Were your employees Armenians?

BS No, there were not any Armenians; Mexicans would come and help us.

RH What did you want your son to become?

BS We did not tell to be anything specifically. He was to become whatever he wanted; He became a surveyor. He hasn’t continued with surveying for a long time; because of the troubles he had with the employees. He had to leave the job. Now, he works on his own in agriculture conservation.

RH In what city?

BS He does it here and goes to everywhere.

RH Where does he live?

BS Behind Erskine.

RH What high school did he go to?

BS Fresno; he went to Los Angeles /she cannot recall the name.-transcriber/ for six months; he did not like it there; they make cars and such. He went there and didn’t like it so he came here and went to a college for a year; then, he went to the army; he served in the military for two years; afterwards, he again went to a college and got his degree.

RH What profession?

BS Surveyor. He worked for six or seven years; at the end, he works only on his own.

RH Who pays for these vineyards now?

BS He does; someone else does the job for him.

RH Does he or your grandchildren keep in touch with any organizations?

BS Yes, they are with the church all the time.

RH Do they have other connections besides the church?

BS My son does not have any other connections; I don’t know about my grandchildren. If they go somewhere, I don’t know.

RH Are any of your grandchildren married?

BS Not yet.

RH What do your grandchildren do?

BS They go to school and help their father.

RH Which school?

BS Two of them go to college and the other one goes to high school.

RH At Fresno State?

BS Yes.

RH Which high school? The one in Sanger?

BS Yes, the youngest is at Sanger High.

RH How do you keep in touch with them? Do you see each other often?

BS Always; did I tell you that I brought them up /laughing.-transcriber/.

RH Are the majority of your friends Armenian?

BS They are Armenian.

RH Do you see each other?

BS It is an Armenian circle. Yes.

RH Do you visit or do they come to see you?

BS By chance, if they have the opportunity to pay me a visit, they do; if I have a chance to visit them, I go.

RH How long have you known them?

BS Since I have been here, I know everyone around here.

RH Do you ever go outside to go somewhere?

BS What do you mean by “to go somewhere”?

RH Lecture or dinner?

BS We go to dinners, but we don’t go to lectures or to such places; especially in the evenings we don’t go out because we are afraid.

RH And today, do you belong to the same organizations as before…?

BS Yes, I go there in the afternoons; I go to meetings in the afternoons; But in the evenings I don’t go because there are dirty things in the city.

RH Do you read Armenian papers?

BS Yes.

RH Which ones?

BS We used to buy Hairenik and Asbarez before; but now we only read Asbarez.

RH Do you know any of the refugees from Lebanon and Soviet Armenia?

BS Yes, I know some of them.

RH Do you think they are Armenians such as yourself? Or do you think they are different?

BS Now, it is a little different; we were different when we came here; we were very poor; when we immigrated here, we were very poor. We didn’t have anything so we had to obey each other; but those people that come are not like that, they have worked there so they can bring money with them and have a totally different lifestyle. I think they are not like us; they live a better life.

RH Do you have advice for them? Do they live righteously in the U. S.?

BS Some of them yes, others no.

RH Do you have a favorite person in the Armenian history? Or someone in modern times?

BS I don’t have something special but I read all the Armenian books and papers; I like to read papers.

RH Did your husband belong to any organization?

BS He was a member of the Dashnaktsutiun.

RH So, during his entire life?

BS Yes. He was a member since he was 18 or 16, I think.

RH In Fresno? In the village?

BS From the village to here.

RH Was he a member of the Krisdapor Gomideh (ARF Chapter)?

BS /She is having troubles answering.-transcriber/. I forgot what was it called.

RH Do you have a favorite Armenian writer in the history or in modern times?

BS I like a private painter whose works I like; I read the books but…

RH What kind of books do you read?

BS I have many books; I have Raffi’s books that I like to read. I didn’t have time to read before, because I was always working and now my eyes are not the same.

RH What do you think a good Armenian looks like?

BS A good Armenian? The one that lives well and stays Armenian; the one that stays Armenian.

RH There have been some Armenian groups lately in Europe that have been killing Turkish officials? Have you heard of them?

BS I have heard of that but I don’t believe that because the Turks can falsify that information; because I cannot trust a Turk.

RH Have you been in Soviet Armenia?

BS No, no.

RH Do you hope to return to Armenia?

BS I am too old for that; I would like to but… I would like to go and see Armenia but my old age won’t allow me to.

RH Would you return to Armenia if there were a free and independent Armenia today?

BS Depends on the conditions? If I were to go alone and my children were to stay here, naturally, I will not go; but if we went there all together, I would have gone; sure, why not? I love Armenia.

RH Were you going to tell your children to go or…?

BS As much as I could, yes.

RH Do you think there will be Armenians here in this part of the world in 50 years?

BS Yes, yes.

RH Why do you think so?

BS Because an Armenian does not die; for example, they used to say before this day that “There will be no Armenians in ten years, in twenty years.” But now there are more Armenians than before. How can I believe that Armenians will become extinct? I cannot believe that. I only don’t know how Armenia is going to be free /getting excited.-transcriber/. I don’t know that. Because we have many problems; we have no army, no resources, no wealth; I am a little unbeliever because of that.

RH Now when they have meetings on the 24th of April, do you participate? Do you think it is a good thing?

BS Yes. They say that those who don’t make their voices heard, can never progress. You have to protest to promote your claims.

RH Have you told your son, your grandchildren the stories that you just told me?

BS Let me tell you -- they are not interested with such things. They are not interested in Grandma’s stories. And if you say something, they tell you: “we know that”.

RH Why didn’t you tell them your story? Is it because they are not interested?

BS They are not interested.

RH Do you want to add something else?

BS I don’t think so.

RH Then, I have one last question for you; say an Armenian student picks up this tape in 100 years and learns about the story of your village, about the massacres, and the relocations; learns about how you worked in Dikranagerd, learns about your journey to the U. S., about how you formed a family here, and wants to ask you for advice. What kind of advice will you give to this future Armenian? What are your words for him?

BS My words to him will be: “Empower yourself! Live as an Armenian, stay Armenian so that you don’t be wandering like us. Can you do that?”

RH Thank you.